Actually are pews still in general use? starts with: IMO, They are still who they are. I assumed that it was just me and 25,000 other people had no issue. Do I hope they change? Why should we be surprised? Because he simply cannot be trusted not to repeat himslefthus destroying more lives. if your a sports fan theres a point of where something amazing is about to happenfootball baseball in the middle of a game changing moment they jump out of their seat. (Not that I waiting with bated breath). vengance is where you make someone pay. Or (referring to Joseph) how to achieve your dreams. Saul did get out of Dodge for some years. This can be anything from praying for people over the phone to working in the Online Campus studio. The world has a lot higher standards and integrity than the whole xtian celebrity machine put together, and the internet helps everyone to see that. The movie was sooooooo good. (he is still famous and worthy of famous people helping him) things you have heard about mark are not even close to true, what you read on the internet isn't true. Where are all the former higly paid speaking gigs that were constant and kept his calendar full with travel? I prefer dealing with an honest atheist (and I know a lot of those) to dealing some self-professing christians. So glad for the folks that started the petition to dis-invite Driscoll, which I signed as well as for those in Australia who protested his abusive, un-Christian behavior toward others, including women. If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. Im guessing Driscolls trying to resurrect his career by going into Charismatic type denominations or churches. Acts 6:15, they were enraged. I would argue the reverse. As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. He dropped the moral bar for both pulpit and pew that has far reaching consequences on the way we do church. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. So where is the money coming from now? I try to make sure my examples reflect current GW practice which is repellent to follow but important that people understand the stuff that I am posting is happening in real time. If any blogger made such a vague blanket statement as this theyd be called out immediately. This guy has lists on his page in bulleted form: If anything, Chandler has to present himself as the UnMark to a degree that few connect dots. All you have to do is say some magic words and we end up being the mean ones if dare say we otherwise. I doubt he walked away broke. Pews are in the old megas. During those early years they had a great impact on hurting people and a great testimony of the work of the Lord in a group of people dedicated to doing whatever He led them to do. As Lydia has wisely pointed out, cult survivors are all at different stages in their recovery. actually getting behind the wheel of a car again will probably be the hardest thing he does, if he ever even wants to drive again. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. sheep are watching and wolves coming. But I am surprised he delivered his message from on high the pulpit. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. How can they do that? LT wrote: i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. LT: Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. Because you worked with multiple megas you have a very diverse perspective that is invaluable. But in America, (to quote HUG) its all about the Benjamins, baby. (glorifies paul. The first time, it was shocking. So many damaged lives. He cannot or will not go back to school to become a plumber or a dentist or what ever, so he has to figure out how to get back into the Christian preaching / book writing / convention circuit. I have met Pastor Lindell once, months ago. Thats how reasonable people see past the wicked. luke was paul's dr and paul was luke's pastor. Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. In a statement Monday, the Christian County Health Department said they also received numerous complaints from the community about the services and urged those who attended to monitor themselves for COVID-19 symptoms over the next 14 days. Did this evil plot involve the use of ninjas or leprechauns? Active homosexuals will not make it into heaven, Lindell said in the sermon. Help keep The Christian Post free for everyone by making a one-time donation today. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. My great concern is that people leaving megas to find these narrow gate churches are used to high level spiritainment and may not feel able to reduce their standards to go to a small church. The point of closed systems is to keep them closed. I sincerely hope Mark Driscoll's remarks are about this specific passage and not about himself. Some guys I knew in Tucson called this shining the Stupid Ray on people.. . Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. (He repented quite often in the past when some were afraid to put his vulgarity on their conference stages.Piper shilled for "repentance"). I believe they were simply behaving as their normal selves. Che Guevera was a die hard Communist who actively conspired with the Soviet Union to turn America into a long nuclear winter landscape that would put Winterfell to shame. The program includes signing over any welfare benefits to the Ministry, with the program alleged to contain little actual psychological assistance, and mostly prayer and expelling demons. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. And as long as they do, it will continue. one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. They have a very different take on the fulfillment of prophecy that you may enjoy learning as a contrast with your own beliefs. "Homosexual sin is not the only serious sin. I have heard Driscoll in person.. https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-establishing-and-building-trust/. he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: It could be that they are as ignorant as I once was, but it makes me distrust their judgment and discernment and dislike them all the same. He was the vulgar shock jock of American Christianity. He said that his hands were tied. He said it makes sense that the word "sin" would appear multiple times in a Biblical discussion of homosexuality. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. There are some Calvinists who go in the opposite direction and are very humbled by their monergistic view of salvation. While a decreasing quota meant less pay. Its what he does. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. The following excerpt from that article caught my attention: "I do not want unnecessary distractions during our conference, particularly as this 30 minute interview was only a small part of this five day event," Mr Houston said in a statement. I am still finding it hard to believe that Mr. Houston doesnt have access to Google, or some other search engine, in Australia. I suppose they could have been made up, although the accounts are supported by numerous descriptions of his pig like behavior. it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. Have you noticed the more scandals from some thugs they actually become more popular? James River Church Online - James River TV Open Discussion Page. Until Mark repents of his Peasant Princess series along with its cartoon, and his Esther series, and his man stay-at-home man fail rants, the only sermon I will listen to of his and his supporters is John 3:16. their ministry grew and even people that werent christians were thankful for them. The opposition is to Jesus. Come on Lindell, Morris, Kellogg and Johnston. Maybe Driscoll can do commercials like John McEnroe, i am against that sort of ministry, that sort of authority over people, that sort of famousness, that sort of using the gospel of Jesus to make money and become well known in christan circles, that sort of using Jesus name for any personal gain, that sort of i have special insight from God and heres how much you have to pay for it in my new book, that sort of quit saying i have to be asking to be forgiven if i hurt people that sort of we are all brethren but i am alpha brethren i dont hold unforgiveness toward mark driscoll but i am not for anyone anywhere doing that sort of ministry. But I am also free to point out his behavior looks sociopathic if one has spent enough time looking into sociopathic behaviors. If so you may be onto something. and it even works better when there is cheap grace and forgiveness all around. Is there a third way that I have overlooked? Couldn't agree more! But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. All 6,115 words of it. love to hear that sermon. especially i want to comment Bills comment: A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. i have seen this with great fruit but sooner or later they seem to join a church and then get into the organized one leader concept of church, usually a small church and then i have seen the vision they had and the practice of each one seeking the Lord individually disapear and be replaced by how to organize and raise funds to do more in the name of the Lord. God, I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire?. I seriously doubt that most younger people then or now who appropriate his image (here in N. America) know much of anything about him. How about the demon trials? As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll see link I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. http://www.richmond.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/article_4d131547-f913-5d43-bfc5-5a292f4c27e1.html, What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. When you add atmosphere teams to further manipulate peoples worship experience that is too much. a couple months ago a young under legal age man near where i live went to a party and drove home with other kids in the car and wrecked. He can be forgiven. I dont see him pastoring a church and I am not even sure his legal problems from the last one are over. I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. This stuff was high on the why we are how we are list back in the day. Unless he completely revamps his life and his teachings, hes going to leave damaged lives in his wake. these were murders not trials. But with those reading glasses they are losing their hipness and relevance and megas feed off of young marrieds with children. That would be terrible. i think you are addressing the biggest point actually. I read your comment and have thought about this a lot. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. He is a draw. That is largely what TWW does, ISTM. If so you may be onto something. Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. "Our desire for things God has forbidden is a reflection of how sin has distorted us, rather than a reflection of how Christ has made us.". My heart aches for all those whom Mark Driscoll hurt from the Petrys and Meyers to the young and impressionable. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. Only when inquiring about membership was their any discussion of W2s and the appropriate amount to tithe. Missouri has not limited attendance at houses of worship but has advised social distancing. Who cares about that pesky truth so long as there are clean bathrooms, great hot coffee and rockin worship? Church Discipline Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. was paul asking for forgiveness? You sure would think so, but to quote H.L. And he was not originally trusted or met with open arms by the Jesus believers of the day. when mercy ministries was investigated at hillsong amazingly the leader Nancy Acorn opened up shop in the u.s. and has many supporters among the christian circuit A cynical, weary part of me says theyll never change. I just took a year of online classes at one of them. This is what the giving unit is looking for, not God. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. @ LT: As much as I distrust Acts29 and the YRR, and as much as many see Matt Chandlers action as mere damage control, at least he admitted that they screwed up, and there is still hope that he really meant it and that they will really act differently in the future because theyve learned something. Now the floodgates will open wide now that his massive deception becomes public knowledge in Australia and the UK. i was looking for my link to Rob Smiths orphanage and found that he has recently posted a great response to those propping up Mark Driscoll. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. Seems like the truth being covered, twisted, remade, ignored is what keeps these people in power and LTs post brings the truth as it actually is back to the forefront. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. James River Kids - YouTube "Join us as we welcome guest speaker, Pastor Mark Driscoll, while he presents Paul the ForgivenPastor Mark Driscoll speaks from Acts 6:8-15 to discuss the importance of forgiveness in our own lives through the example of the Apostle Paul. Some of it probably is. I asked where he got such information. Join us LIVE every Sunday at 9am, 10:45am, 12:30pm and 7pm! I think it should lie with the one who broke the trust in the first place. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. He was engaging, funny and gracious. None of them see anything wrong with this. He had simply accepted the rumors. I never saw it tried in a church setting, but something like that was tried where I worked. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. There was a box for Guest Services. They are showered with gifts and once you relinquish your highly prized contact data more gifts will follow to your home address. When he walked up to speak with me I politely told him neednt spend time with me because I lived about 4 hours away RT and, therefore, wouldnt be attending his church again. One co worker attends and stated that they requested to see W2s and that he tithe accordingly when he was inquiring to become a member. The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. Its kind of like that movie Winters Bone where the communities are closed to a fault. I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things. Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. I think that explains a lot of it. He was not participating in stonings. If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. (Those wounded by MD) must forgive even if (MD) never admits wrong. I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. In case this was not a rhetorical question, the correct answer is entertainment. James River Church is one of the largest Assemblies of God churches in the United States. It was titled "A Biblical Look at Human Sexuality." I am thinking that is no doubt true, but Saul/Paul was also a religious activist who had double crossed his former sponsors in Jerusalem who had given him credentials to go seek out believers for persecution. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious? Monday, December 15, 2008 But we rarely hear about that. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. Gus, it is very naive not to take into consideration that Driscolls constant media attention did not influence the TVC response to their own problem in any way. Penalty Flag? Its appalling that through your words and actions you are able to re-injure the real victims with such ease all while smiling and chuckling on your stage. We are believing this 5-day event will change your life! The he takes him back to Antioch where they work together for a year with converted Gentiles. Please fill me in Numo. If there is one thing I think is missing from the entire narrative of interpreting scripture it is the theme of wisdom running through it from Genesis on. Excellent comment! Im fairly certain MD would enjoy being categorized with a so called revolutionary. Return to homepage. I know people are tired of hearing these messages and having to be acting upon them, but the virus does not care that we are tired. It genuinely didnt occur to me that he was just a good, decent man who might care about Gods children regardless of their zip code. that young man is in jail, he didnt receive a huge sentence and is receiving a great outpouring of care and compassion from the community. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. I know historical accounts can be skewed. Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. Stephens, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to keep his position on the ordinance incomprehensible. Just like Jerry Springer would invite the Duggers on his show after the scandal? Also, there is a difference, IMO, between forgiveness and trust restoration. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. All rights reserved. Rumors that circulated after the trial of Paul Petry. pic.twitter.com/FwaVnYEZIi. 1 point: homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible, and Christians should vote for repeal. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious. During this pandemic we have helped thousands of people with food, financial assistance, counsel, and spiritual encouragement. I am haunted by that infamous message where he appeared to use a Bible passage to describe what was about to happen to two Mars Hill elders. In my opinion Gateway is a cult not a church so they lose their Winters Bone protection status. mode. Great comment Bridget. since we are all clergy??? No, there is no reason to believe CJ committed actual crimes. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. Did Driscoll forget about the part where Saul went away for years after his conversion. What is the biblical prescription for sinning Elders? 15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. sponge is used as toilet paper. hmmm I mean this only works in some venues. Again. But they dont work unless everybody actually sticks to them faithfully without exception, Collinssaid. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. Are they involved in a joint venture? Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? My Comment was Deleted hee hee. mark chose to step down not mark was removed. Here is the gist of Driscolls message: its all about me and Im a martyr for the faith!, Same old Driscoll, full of male bovine meadow muffins. ", Meanwhile, here's what was communicated 'Down Under' "Houston, we have a problem.". I agree with you there, but I wonder, how popular is this hyper macho brand of Christianity anymore? this is even a bigger bad root than the bad root of complimentarianism and authorityism. . I dont believe the above because I am wondering how many more similar stories no matter how benign, there are. By the way, what do you call a person who tells lies? In his sermon, Lindell cites several verses to make his No. to confer grace through the sacraments. https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/. (Jesus is a pastor?) Great insight. And Jesus said He would send the Spirit of Truth, how we deal with situations in truth or deceitfulness is very telling. We need to be just absolutely rigorously adherent to things that we know work. Ans. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by. Hillsong is an international megachurch based in Australia that has exported its influence to major global cities and into churches music across the United States. It was clear to me that Marks attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose. But the dishonest churches can be relied upon to cry persecution. I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. Oh no. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. I am not the most wonderful guy in the world, i am not a saint, but when i asked Jesus to forgive me and fill me with His Spirit i changed inside. In the case of Chandler, the fudgy language in the apologies does not instill much confidence that the root has been exposed so that it can be dug out. I agree more with you than I would like to. I do not for one minute believe they are suddenly open. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. They are relinquishing 10-20% of their gross income. Under the circumstances, Mark Driscoll needs a time out, huh? Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. His career has been a total focus on getting his narcissistic supply. its a little hard to swallow that he knew nothing about Driscolls behaviour. I hope more will speak up in the future. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. . @ Bridget: I can forgive someone even without an apology. It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. At some point, with enough outcry and rage from outside, they may hopefully see it as you did looking up at that 3 x 5 card on your bulletin. They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. Thats an interesting thought. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. When not enough graduates came forward they started begging people please any graduate or relative of a graduate, even if you just graduated from Kindergarten, please please come get your free gift because what Kindergartner doesnt need advice on how to buy a car? Please call upon Jesus today, you will be very glad you did! First, he begins by praying that he wants to make this time just about God and His people; yet he appears to take the stories of Stephen and Paul and apply them to his own circumstance at least that's how it sounded to me. Che is somewhat of a romantic figure for a lot of people which is why bringing him up can be uncomfortable. So now is the time ta share with kind folks the destination of their eternal soul? Then he could claim more fictional persecution. James River Church - YouTube Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. Pouring? To tell, perhaps? Some people believe that God put them there. Its meant only to address the deception of certain megas. (we want to prop mark up so he can do it himself), Mark says: There were a number of other worship songs that roll on after this one, if these are your taste. It takes at least 6 months before you start seeing things clearly. A grunge rock Lord Byron mad, bad and dangerous to know. GW is also currently preaching John Hagees End Times Armageddon sermons to pump up the numbers, claiming the Rapture WILL take place prior to 12-31-18, in order to scare folks into those spontaneous tubs. -Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truths. Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God.

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